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PostSubject: ARCHIVE: Faith and belief   Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:53 am

By Dreamsend 6 Dec 2007 -

This post has been a long time in coming... the past week has proved very tumultuous for me as there has been more than the usual amount of questioning of knowledge, shattering beliefs and worldviews, and surrendering (or trying) to the forces that are beyond my control. Therefore I haven't quite felt up to making this post until now ^^;.



I, for one, really want to finish this. This life.

So, it becomes relevant what I say and do. Are my actions coherent with my thoughts and beliefs? If so, is the outcome what I've aimed for or something disharmonious with my goals? ... Are the beliefs I have really what I -believe-? Or are they more like theories, that I refuse to become attached to, myself?

...For all my talk and posturing how would I actually react if something that were not previously part of my "known world" became "known" to me? How would I ACTUALLY react if, say a fireball manifested in the air in front of me, or the trees beyond the window suddenly disappeared... or if any of the things that I feel to be true, suddenly and really were?


... I'd freak out, that's what I'd do. For all my feelings on the issue, I wouldn't really handle it very well if something that I've seen in dreams were suddenly made manifest. I would expect most others to react the same. Why do I feel the need to address this now? I think that there is a real link in what we believe (actually believe, i.e. hold in our hearts to be true.) and what we perceive... i.e. the reality we experience. Belief dictates reality. Not the other way around.

There are multiple sources that are beginning to explore this - scientists discovering that subatomic particles respond, apparently, to thought and the viewer's expectation; new agers putting stress on visualization and expectation to receive manifested results in their lives. And this concerns "us," (the community of "other" around the world), because, apparently if you never make room in the beliefs, expectations, of the world for something to happen, in your perception of the world, it never will.

I'm bringing this up now because the "next step," if you will, appears to be the willingness to believe and have faith in things that cannot be proven *before* we have seen or encountered them with sight, touch, or sound. Like the scene in "Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail" that comes to mind, where to reach the Holy Grail our hero must step foot first over the edge of an abyss and "trust" that something will be there. There are currently many things out there that we do not perceive because we do not believe. To progress towards the goal (of... awakening? I am not sure) perhaps it would be best to make room in our hearts and mind for what the mind and the society around us currently says is improbable. Not just for the sake of allowing it to happen, also for the sake of lessening the shock.

What are most of us awakening memories and pressing forward with knowledge for? It appears for change - massive, worldwide change. But what would that change actually feel like?

In embracing a world of change, I am embracing the possibility of loss and change of all I am attached to now. Of everything. Am I too attached to allow that? I am, still. There are many things in my life I would like to see stick around, from people and relationships to landforms and landmarks. I feel fully prepared for the introduction of new things - entities, landmarks, etc, but not the loss of the old.....

That is not realistic of me. Everything is in a constant state of change; to wish for something new is often to wish for something old to "fall away." It has been that way for millions of years. "Death gives way to rebirth - death of ways, places, and the ties that bind." Have I accepted that, have I let go? I don't see how moving on, and growth, can occur while you are still tied to things that are falling away. Caught in a state of entropy....

It is also important because, if you believe in energy as I do, and know how to manipulate energy to affect outcome of events, then it becomes a reality that "Faith," when used by the adept, is a very real force to make change. It is not a passive energy, by far. In terms of energy work, as far as I've seen, in making that empty space of allowance that true faith in things provides, you are creating a pull, like a vacuum has (an empty space). And in order to occur, events have to be believed in, in the first place. That is that active energy in the equation; you are believing in the thing - providing the animating spark of life - and inviting it to come into your perception. In this way, the energy, "faith/belief" is a real tool for change.

The next step, as far as I can feel, is allowing the heart to embrace the change, and making room for the expectation of new and wondrous reality. In this way, we will accelerate the change that we all feel and desire to make itself manifest to our perception.


-- Dreamsend


The Aramak Indians of the Caribbean islands tell a tale. The shaman looked out to the sea at the first ships to head to their shores from the European nations, and cried out to his followers, "Look! Look at those great billowing white clouds, coming for us! They bring people, do you see!?" The people gathered out on the shores and looked out, seeing nothing. Confused, every day as the ships grew closer, the shaman would beckon his people to look and see, but again, each time they could not see, as hard as they strained. It was not until the Europeans landed on their shores that the Indians could finally see them. It is to this day that the tale is told of the visitors' "appearing suddenly from thin air," where none but the Aramak shaman had been able to see them.



By Sentru 6 Dec 2007 -

I think you're absolutely right when you write, "how would I actually react if something that were not previously part of my "known world" became "known" to me....... I'd freak out, that's what I'd do."
You've touched on something very, very important. There is a world of difference between "believing" and "experiencing" and between "knowing" and "understanding". We can "believe" in something that runs counter to our usual perception of reality all day long. Doing so might help us think in a new way, but without experience the "belief" is just that: a belief. an opinion.
But to actually experience that which the belief represents has the effect of shattering the perception of the world which our senses and mind have gotten used to. This is the essence of what "initiation" (or "awakening as it's called on these boards) is. When the experience is strong enough and the understanding deep enough, the end result is always a combination of madness and enlightenment. Which of the two dominates is a matter for the will of the individual to decide.

I can't really agree that belief dictates reality, but it does color it to some extent. I would also say that belief influences conception and motive much more than perception. Movies like "What the bleep do we know" present as fact much that is really only theory at this point. Though all "objects" (whether empirical, conceptual or purely sensual) which we have the ability to know really are connected, the only thing this actually tells us for sure is that the human mind, which creates the "objects" we experience in the first place, seemingly needs to connect it's representations together. This tells us absolutely nothing about that which exists beyond the limits of the human mind.
We have a tendency, in my opinion, to anthropomorphize and "anthro-centricize (a word I just made up) pretty much EVERYTHING.

I agree that it is good to believe in things. To have goals and aspirations. To put faith in some man up in the clouds who, though the creator of all things, somehow ends up behaving just like a human being. Beliefs like these are good to have because without them, most people would get flung headlong into the existentialist abyss, grabbing onto whatever quick fixes they could find - sex, drugs, tv, etc - to try and forget their misery.
Oh wait, that's exactly what has happened in the Western world.
So yes, beliefs are good in that they keep people docile. But for those who do not need to be kept docile, a belief in and of itself can be worse than useless. It can limit or warp the understanding, the reasoning mind, the will, and even the "soul"...if one has one.
You say, "There are currently many things out there that we do not perceive because we do not believe", and I just cannot agree. This sounds very "new agey" to me, and perhaps overly optimistic. Perception is intuitive. It's sudden and occurs independently of thought and reason. These latter two are the constructors of "belief", much in the same way that they are constructed largely from perception.
In other worlds, perception leads to conception, but conception does not lead to perception. Many people have tried to get conception to lead to perception in order to provide "philosophical proofs for the existence of God", such as the "First Cause" theory which was later torn apart by Kant.
I don't mean to "bash" what you are saying here. I can come across as very arrogant when I write, and that's not my intention. But I do have to tell you that arguing perception from belief has been done before, argued against, and disproved. I can get into this further if you like.

I do agree with everything you say about change. It is, like it or not, the most basic "law" of the empirical world. Everything is in a constant state of change. Everything is in a constant state of "becoming".



By Ishtahar 6 Dec 2007 -

I too have felt very much as you have described. Many many times. I have sat and thought how would I really feel if what I have been hoping for longing for actually happened, if I did wake up one day with the ability to work 'real' magic and there was an unicorn in my front garden and a elf on the doorstep?

Many times along this rocky path to awakening I have caught myself thinking, it's not real, it is just an exciting but largely academic adventure into stories, and the mind that is not actually really physically going to change anything.

And then something happens to slap me in the face and makes me face up to the fact that it IS real that it IS true and that one day, no matter what I do or dont do there will e change and I either bend and flow and go with it or try to resist it and break. Whether it be an unicorn in the garden or a war with enemies unknown or both.

My most recent dilema relates to something quite simple. My relationship with Shem. There is nothing in the world I want more than to be reunited with my true soul mate and lover. I remember the feeling of his strong arms around me and the utter security I felt in his embrace. I knew he loved me beyond any doubt and I know he still does. I am tired of trying to work things out, to remember, to push forward blindly and on my own and I want his great strength of character and bravery, his leadership to guide us again BUT

BUT BUT BUT. I am happily married to a wonderful husband so where will he fit in? I have children, a family, a life. WHere will Shem fit it. When we were together it was a long time ago, relationshps were different. He was Shadow and I was human, although he never voiced it the inequality was there implicit between us. i was (mostly) at least in the beginning, the 'little woman' I knew my place and there was a certain superiority in him. Without meaning to or even knowing it he looked down on me, expected me to be frail, expected me to be compliant, expected me to let him lead......but now I am not that person, this is not that time. If he expected me to be like that now, would it work could we be together now.

Even as I long for him I fear that the reality will prove to be impossible to live with and the dream of the greatest love lost is better than the reality of that same love spoiled and failed.

I know that is only the tiniest part of what you are saying Dreamsend but to me it is a very real and personal example of the whole dilema. We have our memories and our dreams and our expectations but are we just running blindly into something we just simply are not capable of dealing with when we get there?

There is a part of me that wants to go on being who and what I am now, to maintain my comfortable life and remain safe. In fact it is a very big part of me. The problem is that no matter how big that part is it will know no peace if I cling to it, I dont see that I have any choice but to let go and to be who I am destined to be, do what I am destined to do...it has been a long time coming and who am I to deny my place in it no matter what IT may be



By Dreamsend 13 Dec 2007 -

Sentru, I can understand that. But, obviously I feel differently. I don't so much want to argue whether this is a valid thought process or not... though I appreciate the opening for analysis. I'm way too analytical in my daily life and I've already pored over this .... thoroughly happy.gif

I do want to reach an understanding of what the truth ultimately is... but I think we can do that without dissecting and stitching up things that have been said.

Simply, I have to just express my understanding that having faith (in what we want to happen, though one cannot "follow" it's progress as it happens) and using belief (as a energetic tool like any other), could be the next steps to attaining what we want.

No worries, thought is good happy.gif


Ishtahar, I wonder about reality everyday... whether much of what I'm experiencing is actually "real" and how "reality" differs from what I perceive. I find that the less I accept non-mainstream ideas and thoughts, the "duller" (as in, like I've stared at 30 hrs of t.v. *lol*) my mind feels, and the easier it is to fall into those ways of thinking... Less challenging, less stress and less courage involved. All of which convince me for lack of other evidence that the non-normal things I experience are more real than what I can "fall into line with" easily with the rest of society. Like... like eating sugar cookies is easier than drinking water and eating fresh vegetables. hahaha.

I hope that it all works out, and I have the feeling that contrary to what we can imagine now, many things that don't seem that they will be able to coexist, will.

But that's just a feeling I have ^^ who knows what reality will be, when the time comes.

-- Angela



By Sentru 13 Dec 2007 -

QUOTE
"Sentru, I can understand that. But, obviously I feel differently. I don't so much want to argue whether this is a valid thought process or not"


My question would be, "why not"?
If you only want to discuss with people who are in total agreement with you, I'll accept that and in the future will only reply to those portions of your posts which I do completely agree with.
To me, the purpose of discussion in general is to share ideas. Though it's nice when people agree with my ideas, I'd get bored pretty quickly if everyone always agreed with me. That holds especially true when it comes to topics such as these.

QUOTE
"I do want to reach an understanding of what the truth ultimately is... but I think we can do that without dissecting and stitching up things that have been said."


I take it that by "dissecting and stitching up things that have been said" you mean looking at the opinions stated, taking the time to actually thing about them and then giving feedback. You make it sound as if that's a bad thing and I honestly don't know why.
This attitude seems very common on pretty much every "occult" (and especially "otherkin") forum I've ever visted, and it's always disappointing to me when it first rears it's head.

Please tell me that I've grossly misinterpreted what you seem to be implying. Otherwise, as stated above, I'll simply stop replying to those portions of your posts that I am not in 100% agreement with.



By Ishtahar 13 Dec 2007 -

I consider it to be vitally important in any situation and particularly in this, where we are all seeking to learn and grow and understand and come together in a spirit of unity and opennes that we express our views honestly and are totally fee to disagree, provided that we do so politely and respectfully.....which, to make myself absolutely clear, I am not suggeting that anyone has not been doing here.

I share your view Sentru, that discussions become stale and boring when everyone agrees with everything you say and I personally enjoy the stimulation of being challenged and having to think and examine my own beliefs, this is the way in which I test what is a true belief and what is just an opinion.

However, I do think that everyone needs to be aware that, particularly in a medium such as the written word, where it is difficult sometimes to infer tone and easy to misinterperate both tone and meaning, the strong expression of an opinion which is different to your own can feel very uncomfortable or even intimidating.



By Azaz'el 13 Dec 2007 -

I feel it is vital to us all to uderstand the reason for this forum and the discussions that take place. This forum gives us the chance to talk openly about what we feel, experience, do etc etc etc. This then leads to discussions about all that. It would be a boring forum indeed if everyone agreed with what was said, and would be something that I personally would not be interested in.

However, I feel it is impotant to point out one thing - we all have the right to talk about a subject but also state that at this time we don't wish to go into deeper or further explanations. The reasons why we feel this way don't have to be given. It is out of politeness and courtesy that we will respect this and accept that the individual does not wish to discuss it further. The thread then naturally comes to an end or the topic can be continued between other members.

I know it is very easy to judge and compare forums, but all I can say is that this forum is still in its infancy and I hope it has the potential to grow and develope into one that is for 'real' people, and not just those who want to play or act at being something 'other.' We have probably all experienced forums that are so 'nice' it becomes boring! This isn't one of them. We can all be open and honest, but we also accept what members say and agree to disagree.

Az



By Dreamsend 14 Dec 2007 -

Yes, I can clarify. I used the words I selected very intentionally:

I don't so much want to argue whether this is a valid thought process or not...

I do want to reach an understanding of what the truth ultimately is... but I think we can do that without dissecting and stitching up things that have been said.


I don't want to argue. But I do want to discuss. Perhaps I should have been more clear about that. I don't want to feel as if you, or anyone, is demanding an explanation, or for me to "prove" myself - through statistics, long garbled explanations, touching on each and every thing stated. The difference I find between discussion and argument definitely has to do with a feeling of being "attacked" or not.

How your response comes off is, to me, a lack of an "opening/welcoming" to express one's beliefs in response. You don't want to be turned (to an alternate way of thought) so much as you want to prove what I say to be wrong. I want to be disagreed with, (especially if it will lead to correction and/or progress), but I don't want to have to make an effort to have a simple discussion. That is the difference between argument and discussion to me. I don't want to feel as if anything I express will be "dissected" because it is "wrong."

This isn't my wanting to be agreed with completely. Or even at all. I love thought and debate... but I don't enjoy the feeling of another's apparent scorn (again, the internet can mislead for tone, that's true) for what I hold most close to me at the given moment. You can disagree and I will be forever grateful. But, it matters how you phrase your disagreement, even if you disclaim it at the end, what was actually said sort of sticks with a person. I said "dissect" because the feeling is kind of like the indiscriminate slicing of a blade into my skin to find out what's inside ^^. Intellectual curiosity and all, the method hurts, and there must be a better way.

I do welcome disagreement and active discussion. But, I think that people can have fun and even be friends in the midst of their disagreement on a topic, and that the sharing of thoughts should bring them closer in the end. It should not divide, I am not your "enemy" in thoughts I may have or have had, and... I suppose I just didn't want to become active in that type of discussion.

-- Angela



By Azaz'el 15 Dec 2007 -

I can completely understand what you say here Dreamsend and also agree with it. This forum is not the place to have what we feel of think scrutinised in such a way. I have been in a situation many moons ago where what I believed was torn apart openly - not for discussion but purely for spite - and it wasn't a pleasant experience. So much so, I will not allow it to take place here. But I'm sure it wasn't meant in that way

As has been mentioned already, it can be very difficult to talk about personal information and especially when that information is based upon intangibles such as emotions, beliefs etc etc. And once a comment has been written and posted, it can be very easy to look at it at a later stage and suddenly realise that it comes across in a way that we didn't mean. I'm sure this has been happening here, as we've all become engrossed in the topic but have not had a way to express our enthusiasm or quite what we mean.

The bottom line is that this forum is a place where we can all share thoughts and ideas and even challenge respected wisdom. But not at the expense of accepting what others think.

I couldn't agree more Sentru, I think everything is in a state of becoming, and that is what makes it exciting to be here at this time. We get to see the change and the development and hopefully the awakening. Here's a question though - you say that through awakening or initiation comes a combination of madness and enlightenment. Would you consider them to both be the same? They both offer a view of the world and existence that is skewed and not based completely on the rationaly perceptions of the 'sane' - and I have met some pretty skewed individuals who have such a grasp of the reality of reality that they make you sit back in awe. So does awakening/initiation bring about a change in our perception of the universe, or does our change in perception open us up to the awakening/initiation process?

Az



By Ishtahar 16 Dec 2007 -

I have been reading over these posts and it ocurred to me that sometimes when we are as confident and open we sometimes forget that many of us have had it hard. I have been very lucky and have not suffered for my beliefs and views, or at least only mildly. I am, however, very aware that there are those of us who have spent our whole lives hiding and being threatened, ridiculed, belittled, put down and generally punished for our beliefs in a world that does not want to accept us.

There are those of us who have been wounded time and time again and this has made us sensitive to attack and percieved attack. When we express things that are difficult to express we are putting incredible trust in those who read and reply and those who do reply have a responsibility to realise and respect this.



By Sentru 16 Dec 2007 -

QUOTE
"Here's a question though - you say that through awakening or initiation comes a combination of madness and enlightenment. Would you consider them to both be the same?"


Though most mad people I have met have had a bit of the initiate in them and most initiates have had a bit of the mad man in them, I would not consider initiation and madness to be the same thing.
More than anything else, what separates a mad man from an initiate is conscious awareness. Though the initiate is a frequent traveller to the unconscious realms and may even get lost over there, he does so with conscious awareness. He brings light to the dark places and ultimately intergrates all of his repressed, hidden and transcendant qualities into a single whole. He is a unified being.
A mad man, on the other hand, is outright controlled by the unconscious. His conscious mind (ego) is split and fractured. There is no unity in him. He lives in a dream world, and not in a good way. There is no awareness there.
In my line of work, I deal with schizophrenics on a daily basis. I would never confuse their illness for initiation. Even when their delusions are occult-themed, it's obvious that these people are no more than prisoners of their own unconscious minds.
HOWEVER...
I have had some mystical experiences with schizophrenics which have floored me. In the same way that you or I might receive a true vision in dream, these people - living in a waking dream - can also have visions sometimes. In fact, because they are so ruled over by the unconscious (which includes the archetypal aspect of such), they are far more likely to have such visions than non-schizophrenics.
At times, I've even come across people who were probably naturally gifted in a psychic sense and ALSO schizophrenic. The things these people could tell you about yourself would shock you. Yet for all this, they were all still quiet crazy and unable to function in day to day society. An initiate, on the other hand, CAN do so...albiet not always without some difficulty. Even so, an initiate does not need medication to keep him from going catatonic, or from believing that the FBI (or Illuminati, or whoever) is trying to wire-tap his brain or steal his intestines for research purposes.

QUOTE
"So does awakening/initiation bring about a change in our perception of the universe, or does our change in perception open us up to the awakening/initiation process?"


Well, I'd say that initiation actually encompases both of these. The latter, followed by the former. It's seems that usually there is an inital change or opening in perception, followed by an "ordeal", followed by the "initiation proper".
I don't know how familiar you are with the Golden Dawn and their "formulae", but I think that IAO sums up any initatic experience perfectly.
I = Isis = Initial change = excitement, wonder, awe
A = Apophis = Ordeal = terror, suffering, destruction of old world view
O = Osiris = Initiation proper = Rebirth; birth of new perspective/understanding from the old.



By Ishtahar 16 Dec 2007 -

Yes, I think you are right about madness and enlightenment. I, too have experienced both people who have serious mental problems and people who are apparently 'off planet' through occult experiences, and there is very definately a difference.


Having said that, depending on your definition of madness I think that everyone has to pass through a period of madness, or at least of loss of identity and ego before you can achieve any level of true enlightenment and, in my experience, you go through the same thing, the descent into madness, the loss of sense of self, the confusion and feeling of disslocation etc, every time you move up a level so to speak (I think I have been playing WOW too much )

I dont think that this is a very elegant way to describe a complex subject buy hopefully it will make some sense biggrin.gif

BTW Sentru... can you ever be absolutely sure that the FBI, Illuminati etc are NOT involved in intestinal knitting....seriously there are people out there, people with power and influence who would not want union, who do not want humanity to ascend, who do not want magic back and our potential achieved.



By Sentru 16 Dec 2007 -

QUOTE
Having said that, depending on your definition of madness I think that everyone has to pass through a period of madness, or at least of loss of identity and ego before you can achieve any level of true enlightenment and, in my experience, you go through the same thing, the descent into madness, the loss of sense of self, the confusion and feeling of disslocation etc,


Yeah, I agree.
Madness and initiation are not the same species or in the same genus or even family, so to speak, but they are at least in the same kingdom.
Initiation is a slippery slope. Though I've never met (or even heard) of any certifiably insane person becoming an initiate in the truest sense, the converse is sadly enough, not all that rare. People can genuinely "loose it" - to a greater or lesser extent - while undergoing an initiatic ordeal. I know of one person (a friend of a friend) who had such an experience and "snapped". He ended up jumping off a building and killing himself.

QUOTE
"BTW Sentru... can you ever be absolutely sure that the FBI, Illuminati etc are NOT involved in intestinal knitting....seriously there are people out there, people with power and influence who would not want union, who do not want humanity to ascend, who do not want magic back and our potential achieved."


lol. Well I suppose much is possible, though I'd have a hard time believing that the NWO is targeting the people I've met who have made these claims.



By Lael 16 Dec 2007 -

QUOTE
"Initiation is a slippery slope. [...] People can genuinely "loose it" - to a greater or lesser extent - while undergoing an initiatic ordeal. I know of one person (a friend of a friend) who had such an experience and "snapped". He ended up jumping off a building and killing himself."


I, unfortunately, second that. At the risk of sounding arrogant (and only because it sort of pertains to the discussion at hand) I will say that I am sometimes perceived as a guide by those people who are on the verge of their awakening/initiation. Heavens know that if I am that indeed then I'm a very lousy one. I've had people go through their awakening and snap, and if nothing else it's made me very, very reluctant to take any part in that process. Some just don't make it. Perhaps they're mentally lacking the strength it takes to pull yourself through it and come out with something resembling a sense of self.

As for it being a slippery slope - it reminds me of something that was taught to me a long time ago. Self discovery is like birth, he said. Once it starts, it can't really be stopped - it will lead to something irreversible, be it a new life or death. Still rings true, that. I only wish it didn't end with death for some.



By Ishtahar 17 Dc 2007 -

It has been said of life that the only sure thing about it is that it will eventually end in death.

I have also heard it said of death that it is only the beginning of a new and different life.

I think that there is something within the soul of us all that strives. Not everyone works out what it is striving for. Some turn to drink or drugs, some to making money and acquiring posessions, some to adventuring or exploring, others to inward seeking and intiiation. In every category some fail, maybe they are just looking in the wrong place for this life.

Or maybe failure is the lesson they need to learn this time so that next time they will be able to achieve.



By Lael 17 Dec 2007 -

QUOTE

"Or maybe failure is the lesson they need to learn this time so that next time they will be able to achieve."


Obviously, I would very much like to believe that is the case. But it's hard, at least for me, not to hold myself responsible in a way - if indirectly - if I'm around when it goes wrong, given that I am what I am.

Then again, on one occasion I was feeling particularly guilty, I was reminded that someone else's awakening and its outcome is not about me. Which sort of echoes what you said, Ishtahar - who am I to decide whether failure was or wasn't the very lesson they were meant to learn?

It's still not much easier for that, though. ;-)



By Ishtahar 19 Dec 2007 -

Maybe that is your lesson Lael....that things which are worthwhile are rarely easy.

Guilt is such a worthless emotion. In my experience most of the 'negative' emotions have a good side to them...for example anger can be extremely cathartic and dynamic and at the very least acts as a release, fear can heighten awareness and teach caution, even remorse can teach lessons and give something to build on......but guilt teaches nothing, creates nothing, achieves nothing. I try to avoid it as much as I can biggrin.gif
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