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 Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?

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Ashtart

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PostSubject: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 pm

What do you know or remember about the Morning Star? I've started having fractured remnants and imagery about him, that I would like to remember more about. *frustration* Embarassed Mad Mad

I think that I was present around the time of the first Fall and that I knew him. I can barely remember some of the events that happened afterwards, the war and whatnot. In my mind he had bright red (as in blond-red) hair and a gentle face, and he cared very much about doing "the right thing." I think my betrayal of my Shadow friend, as described elsewhere, was caused by and related to the events (i.e. overarching betrayals of the people closest to him by the people closest to them... organized to subvert his actions) with Lucifer, and that that person was someone close to him. I think that he - Lucifer - acted rather innocently at first, thinking that he was working to correct an obvious wrong in the way people lived and were treated, and didn't realize that the "powers-that-be" did not want him to disrupt the nature of their carefully-constructed society, and they infiltrated his friends and "family" - that tight circle of his closest friends and companions - and destroyed him for it.

Thoughts? I'm interested in all points-of-view, whether they coincide with what I've found or not. I really just want to remember the truth and get this sadness off of my chest =\.
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:26 am

Dream'sEnd wrote:
What do you know or remember about the Morning Star? I've started having fractured remnants and imagery about him, that I would like to remember more about. *frustration* Embarassed Mad Mad

I think that I was present around the time of the first Fall and that I knew him. I can barely remember some of the events that happened afterwards, the war and whatnot. In my mind he had bright red (as in blond-red) hair and a gentle face, and he cared very much about doing "the right thing." I think my betrayal of my Shadow friend, as described elsewhere, was caused by and related to the events (i.e. overarching betrayals of the people closest to him by the people closest to them... organized to subvert his actions) with Lucifer, and that that person was someone close to him. I think that he - Lucifer - acted rather innocently at first, thinking that he was working to correct an obvious wrong in the way people lived and were treated, and didn't realize that the "powers-that-be" did not want him to disrupt the nature of their carefully-constructed society, and they infiltrated his friends and "family" - that tight circle of his closest friends and companions - and destroyed him for it.

Thoughts? I'm interested in all points-of-view, whether they coincide with what I've found or not. I really just want to remember the truth and get this sadness off of my chest =\.


Personally, I don't know/remember anything of Lucifer.

All I can do is share this link with you. There may be something that's a visual trigger for you or at least it's something that's very beautiful to look at, if nothing else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_g%C3%A9nie_du_mal

I stumbled upon pictures of those sculptures by those two brothers and kept a browser open to that for days, just looking at them because they are so amazing. My only thought was that if the human mind could even remotely grasp the absolute beauty of Lucifer, it was that these two brothers had maybe, just maybe, done him justice in their attempts at portraying a visual of him.
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:43 am

I've been told (very recently in fact) that there was a broken covenant related to the Morning Star and his Fall. He agreed to it but things didn't go as planned and he was painted out to be a renegade (an Anakim) and "dealt with" by the Council and "establishment". Interesting that you bring up this topic now Angela, as I was driving myself crazy a few days ago trying to find out information about this very topic. Unfortunately, there's not much credible information out there, and so I set it aside to focus on other things. Maybe others can elaborate?

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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:53 pm

Thanks for the link, Valthasar. They don't remind me of him, but I appreciate the thought =).

Those sculptures reminded me of the first time I was inspired by art about the Fallen. Totally offtopic, lol, but so pretty: http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/01jan/nephilim2.jpg (more views of "The Sons of God Saw the Daughters of Men That They Were Fair": http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2076/1721093033_ffaf7a0738.jpg , http://www.flickr.com/photos/09traveler/1721915102/in/set-72157604405083293/ at the Corcoran Museum in Washington, D.C.)
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:53 pm

Dream'sEnd wrote:
Thanks for the link, Valthasar. They don't remind me of him, but I appreciate the thought =).

Those sculptures reminded me of the first time I was inspired by art about the Fallen. Totally offtopic, lol, but so pretty: http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/01jan/nephilim2.jpg (more views of "The Sons of God Saw the Daughters of Men That They Were Fair": http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2076/1721093033_ffaf7a0738.jpg , http://www.flickr.com/photos/09traveler/1721915102/in/set-72157604405083293/ at the Corcoran Museum in Washington, D.C.)

Thank you for sharing! Those are lovely! Wow!
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:42 pm

Thanks for sharing those images, the statue link you posted valthasar is unknown to me and it is stunning.

The Morning Star was beautiful, and sad, and wistful and forward thinking and so much more. He was a wise being, calm and strong, and understood much..... but then again he had to, being in the position he was in. It was just a shame that he did much as many of us did and believed in the purity of all Races, particularly in his brothers. It hurt him so much when some turned against him ...... I felt it too then and again later when it happened to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:51 pm

Azaz'el wrote:
Thanks for sharing those images, the statue link you posted valthasar is unknown to me and it is stunning.

The Morning Star was beautiful, and sad, and wistful and forward thinking and so much more. He was a wise being, calm and strong, and understood much..... but then again he had to, being in the position he was in. It was just a shame that he did much as many of us did and believed in the purity of all Races, particularly in his brothers. It hurt him so much when some turned against him ...... I felt it too then and again later when it happened to me.

You're welcome. Always glad to share the beauty of Lucifer, even if the source is a sculpture from a human mind/hands.

Fwiw, even with being brought up in a religious home, I never believed he was evil.

Truth be known, there are humans who are the embodiment of pure evil and scare me far worse than Lucifer ever would.

You do realize that what I speak of is heresy. =)
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:46 am

Heretic, is my middle name! So don't be shy birds of a feather flock together! Or in this case at least something with wings!

What myth has said is true, not many know that!


Ouza Wink


Last edited by Ouza on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:48 am

Ouza wrote:
Heretic, is my middle name! So don't be shy birds of a feather flock together! Or in this case at least something with wings!


Ouza Wink

Sweet! =D

Coffee? LOL

I'm over in the chat room if you're bored. =)

I should create an online name. the_happy_heretic

It's probably taken already, though. LOL
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:38 pm

Lucifer was the Morning Star, the light bringer. What can I say? He was beautiful, proud, full of energy and light. His men would have followed him into hell and did.

The covenant was never broken. It's still going now. His charge was to bring the light of illumination to the earth, to humanity, to teach them and purify them and make them fit for ascention. It's not the covenant that went wrong, it's us. He's still here, still trying.

I think Lucifer is one of the most misunderstood people in history. He never fell. He was never evil. He is the light bringer for god's sake... doesn't that tell you something :p
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:02 am

Ishtahar wrote:
Lucifer was the Morning Star, the light bringer. What can I say? He was beautiful, proud, full of energy and light. His men would have followed him into hell and did.

The covenant was never broken. It's still going now. His charge was to bring the light of illumination to the earth, to humanity, to teach them and purify them and make them fit for ascention. It's not the covenant that went wrong, it's us. He's still here, still trying.

I think Lucifer is one of the most misunderstood people in history. He never fell. He was never evil. He is the light bringer for god's sake... doesn't that tell you something :p


And I see far more integrity and honor in that side of things.

I'm right there with you on that whole misunderstood paragraph, fwiw. =)
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:38 am

I'm amazed I didn't see this thread until now. Funny how things happen.

One thing I can say for certain is I completely agree with you, Ish. That misunderstanding, heaped over and over upon itself for millennia, was deliberate, as a weapon in this war that has been going on ever since. How else do you get people blindly on your side, than convince them the other opinion is evil?

I think Lucifer has some kind of link to the goddess Ashera. In Exodus, there are repeated commandments from God to the Israelites, to go someplace and destroy all the Asherim. These were pillared groves dedicated to her, and probably also worshippers. Before this, she had been revered even by Israelites as "the Queen of Heaven." Why exactly she was dethroned and cursed by God is not said, and I don't know. I strongly feel there is a connection, though.

From what I remember, Lucifer was the first to insist humanity was, or at least has the potential to be, equal to angels. That at least was the propaganda which divided the factions: the excuse to argue over. I'm thinking, now, both sides were seeing one half of the whole. Some were reaching too far into the future with their ideas, and others became too entrenched in the present.

There was a fall, but it was more along the lines of an agreement and education, than punishment. The only hell is getting trapped in the belief you're living it, that there's nowhere to go but further down, and I don't think anyone can stay there forever.

Everything that's happened seems like a play. The script is being written by everyone performing in it, but the director is still there, and knows what the payoff will be before final curtain. That's a surreal thought, but the best way I can find to express this sense of divine chaos I just got. Other than that, I'm completely blocked off. All I can see is a figure with long crimson hair and matching wings, standing in the middle of a circle of angels, their faces set and cold. I think his wings had been shades of violet and gold, like a sunrise, before that.
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:38 pm

(snip)
Scratch wrote:
I think Lucifer has some kind of link to the goddess Ashera. In Exodus, there are repeated commandments from God to the Israelites, to go someplace and destroy all the Asherim. These were pillared groves dedicated to her, and probably also worshippers. Before this, she had been revered even by Israelites as "the Queen of Heaven." Why exactly she was dethroned and cursed by God is not said, and I don't know. I strongly feel there is a connection, though.
(snip)

This makes me want to hunt down my research on the words related to god in that context, of which i have a folder of. (Hand written notes, not a computer file. So not only do I have files and files and notebooks and binders of stuff, I also have to decipher my scribblings. LOL)

The thing I saw in the church as a kid was a lack of balance, going by their teachings. To me, if it took a male and a female to procreate, then where was the female part of the god deity? (Yes, again, this sort of logic was coming from a seven or eight year old and ignored by everyone.)

So when I discovered upon researching a few years ago that Nephilim/nephilim didn't mean what everyone and their brother claims, I jumped right on researching all contexts of the word god. And also Elohim/elohim. (Someone please tell me if I should cap those words or not since I don't know exactly what's proper. LOL)

Of course by the time I did that, I jumped on researching the whole angels and demons thing, thus bringing me to the conclusion that there are angels and there are demons and I really do think that some have a dual nature.

Anyway, I'll dig that out and work on getting a coherent post together about the contexts of the god words. Then if anyone is interested, I'll certainly toss one together about the -el thing.

Btw and fwiw, in my looking into all of this, I did figure out that the -im ending is plural and the -el ending signifies divinity.

=)
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:49 pm

The reincarnation cycle, if you believe in it or not. is not one of those unavoidable things you can just lightly step out of. It takes years, tens of thousands of years in fact to even get close to release unless you have help from somewhere else! But first they... have to find you!

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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:23 pm

I am not saying this book is correct in terms of first-hand knowledge as we have from several members here, but it is an interesting historical account of Lucifer. I own two or three of this author's books, and I've enjoyed her low key, non pretentious writing style. It might be somewhat useful.
The Secret History of Lucifer
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:28 pm

That's interesting you bring up Elohim, Val, since I think that name may have something to do with what happened with Asherah. I would have in my previous post, but something held me back. Kind of showed that we're on the same page, in the process...

Anyway, I'm not sure of usage the either, although I do think you're right about the -im and -el endings. I have heard Elohim used as one of God's names, or perhaps some kind of personification, but don't think that's right. I think it more likely describes a group of angels, which jives with the ending. In that case, the term would apply similarly to a surname.

I would be interested to see that post. You reminded me, with this one, of when I started calling God It, at 7 or 8 as well. They said themselves that God is everything, so I figured It had to be both male and female, or neither, so saying "Him" wasn't accurate. That didn't go over too well. Wink Although I did have the last laugh, when I found out in college how Greek, and Aramaic, have what I think are called neuter prefixes (German does as well?). So when Biblical texts were translated into languages without these, these were replaced with "he," although the closest thing we have in English is "it." I do still use that by preference, despite implications of disrespect.
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:31 pm

And thank you, Veil. I'd like to read that book. My jaw dropped when I read the synopsis, because I think that's exactly what I was talking about...
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:34 pm

Valthasar... it's a name, Elohim, so I would capitalize. I also tend to think some terms like Universe should be capitalized, just to signify their importance... even if they aren't a proper noun.

Hope that helps! Very Happy

As for Lucifer, this feels very much like a conspiracy theory. I'm not saying it's wrong (because it does seem to have a ring of truth to my ears). I have always had my doubts about Lucifer being the all-powerful "evil one", but there is so much overwhelming evidence against him with absolutely no proof to support his innocence. And yes, I know... it was those in charge who had the power to shape the minds (and history) of humanity. All very romantic, but to someone like me nothing is verifiable, therefore it must be suspect.

Likewise, the evidence doesn't point to Micha'el as a rogue, as someone out for himself and working to further his own agenda. Overwhelming evidence from clairvoyants and psychics and those who claim to see and speak to angels... countless people from all walks of life and backgrounds, have only positive things to say about the archangels, and Micha'el in particular. I'm not saying that it's impossible, that there isn't a hidden agenda of a sinister nature, but what is the ultimate goal? The outside evidence shows these archangels, and all the angels, are working tirelessly to raise the level of humanity (i.e. ascension). It's thousands and thousands of people... millions even, all throughout history and into the present day... and I believe them (mostly) because I've had similar experiences where I know I have been protected and guided by my guardian angels.

I see three possibilities: 1) There is a dual aspect to these entities, thus both perspectives are true; 2) Someone is wrong; 3) Both sides did and said things that snowballed - thus each party bears equal responsibility.

For now, I'll take the role of devil's advocate, only on the side of the Malakhim. I hate to see them (all) as painted out to be the villains, any more than it was fair that the Grigori were deemed "evil".

Does any of this make sense to anyone else besides me?

These topics are definitely something I will keep an open mind about and will continue to analyze from all sides. But for now, nothing that's been said has really changed my beliefs... maybe altered slightly, but not totally changed. I still believe in the Divine Plan, and I think that keeping our eyes focused on the Creator/Source/God and trusting in Him is the only answer. Backbiting and speculation will only create more wounds that will need to heal eventually.

I will definitely look up that book, Veil. Thanks for the reference.

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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:37 pm

Oops... maybe I should have used It instead of Him? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:23 pm

Scratch wrote:
That's interesting you bring up Elohim, Val, since I think that name may have something to do with what happened with Asherah. I would have in my previous post, but something held me back. Kind of showed that we're on the same page, in the process...

Anyway, I'm not sure of usage the either, although I do think you're right about the -im and -el endings. I have heard Elohim used as one of God's names, or perhaps some kind of personification, but don't think that's right. I think it more likely describes a group of angels, which jives with the ending. In that case, the term would apply similarly to a surname.


In the cases of Asherah and Elohim, it can be capitalized or not, depending on the usage. El was a god, and Asherah his consort in the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament. Originally, however, elohim was "the gods". Remember, God of the scriptures talking about having no gods above him? That was because in the original Judaic system, there were more than two deities. The YHWH portion that many like to translate as God, actually means "The Lord". This would also be tied to Baal or Ba-al. Baal was originally a storm god, but his gift for lightning and fire was drawn into the concept of YHWH.

When you do not capitalize asherah, it is actually ha asherah, which means "the asherah". The asherash is the pole or grove of tries where Asherah was worshipped, and most were close to "high places" where Baal was also worshipped. The concept of the asherah was kept after YHWH came into common usage, and many Judaic Witches, ChristoPagans, and Gnostics still work with Asherah as a deity. Due to the association with trees and groves, this also allows for a more easy transition when individuals change their path from one of the Christian ones into the aforementioned Judaic Witch ChristoPagan or Gnostic path, because they can still keep their "Christ" mass tree.
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:39 pm

Veil wrote:
In the cases of Asherah and Elohim, it can be capitalized or not, depending on the usage. El was a god, and Asherah his consort in the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament. Originally, however, elohim was "the gods". Remember, God of the scriptures talking about having no gods above him? That was because in the original Judaic system, there were more than two deities. The YHWH portion that many like to translate as God, actually means "The Lord". This would also be tied to Baal or Ba-al. Baal was originally a storm god, but his gift for lightning and fire was drawn into the concept of YHWH.

When you do not capitalize asherah, it is actually ha asherah, which means "the asherah". The asherash is the pole or grove of tries where Asherah was worshipped, and most were close to "high places" where Baal was also worshipped. The concept of the asherah was kept after YHWH came into common usage, and many Judaic Witches, ChristoPagans, and Gnostics still work with Asherah as a deity. Due to the association with trees and groves, this also allows for a more easy transition when individuals change their path from one of the Christian ones into the aforementioned Judaic Witch ChristoPagan or Gnostic path, because they can still keep their "Christ" mass tree.

Thank you. Asherah is one of the words I want to look into soon so I can learn even more about it. =)
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:47 pm

Veil wrote:
I am not saying this book is correct in terms of first-hand knowledge as we have from several members here, but it is an interesting historical account of Lucifer. I own two or three of this author's books, and I've enjoyed her low key, non pretentious writing style. It might be somewhat useful.
The Secret History of Lucifer

Thanks! I've added that to my bookmooch list. =)
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:09 pm

Myth, I would have quoted you, but quickly realized that would involve reprinting your whole post. You make perfect sense, and I think that was an important reminder to keep a cool head with what can be painful and still inspire impassioned rhetoric.

I don't really see any evidence against Lucifer, other than simply being branded "The Father of Lies," and continuing to be called so. This is more compelling than recent, scattered claims of his innocence, and does smell of conspiracy theory, but do we know where that opinion came from? Who first declared it? If God is all powerful, and does, as Jesus said, count each hair upon our heads, why allow this evil underling to persist in drawing us away? There always seems to be a duality, but is it a battle between good and evil, or more along the lines of the yin yang? I'm not trying to argue, but these are the questions your questions raised in my mind.

I think there is a dual nature to all cognizant beings, so the first and third of your suggested possibilities seem true to me. "Someone is wrong" sounded too simplistic: war is wrong, because the warmongers see themselves as right, and their opponent wrong.

Something was telling me it wouldn't be long before I could get into these memories. I'm kind of scared to, but hope this wall will come down soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:55 pm

Quote :
...but is it a battle between good and evil, or more along the lines of the yin yang?

Exactly! That is one of my major questions, which I fear I won't get an answer to any time soon. That is an excellent way to put it, Scratch. I'm quickly losing my perspective of polar opposites (which wasn't ever strong to begin with) but I still feel certain there is a pool of negative energy out there that people can tap into, sort of like the Yin inside the Yang (or is it the other way around... I can't ever get them straight!). It's much smaller than the Light, but very powerful and opposite. It doesn't create so much as it corrupts, and the Light contains so it can't grow out of proportion and corrupt everything - very similar to the Yin and Yang. At least, that's my working theory on good and evil at this point. Very Happy The people who tap into it are the ones we might deem as evil because their souls get corrupted by this darkness.

Well, I'm glad I made even a little bit of sense!

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PostSubject: Re: Lucifer - any memories or knowledge?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:19 pm

I'd never thought of it quite like that, but like that interpretation of the circles inside quite a lot. The greater light and darkness (the two yin/yang halves) work together. I don't think either of them is "good" or "evil," simply opposites. But they each hold that opposite color contained, which makes them part of it, but not. So perhaps those circles are the corrupting influences: the eyes of the hurricanes where stagnation occurs.
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