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PostSubject: ARCHIVE: Doubles, triples, and others   ARCHIVE: Doubles, triples, and others EmptyMon Oct 11, 2010 11:47 am

By Lael Dec 4 2007 -

Some idle research into names got me wondering. In the internet era, where everyone with a computer and a connection can share whatever they please through websites, mailing lists, forums and blogs, it takes only so long before you run into the following: someone claiming to be a reincarnated Big Name. Or even a lesser one.

I wonder how you deal with that; how you explain that, even, if you do at all. The popular (politically correct) explanation ties in with the concept of parallel planes/universes, which admittedly does hold water, but I feel is being used as something of a blanket explanation. Or excuse. Whichever.

I've seen attempts at keeping up such a discussion before, elsewhere, but all it amounted to was something along the lines of, "I'm X." "No, *I* am X!"

Uh, yes. Well. Can't get far that way, I suppose. Anyway, I'd like to hear...read...your thoughts on that, if you will.

By Azaz'el Dec 4 2007 -

It's actually an interesting topic and discussion, as it has been something that has been touched upon before.

I the past I have not met anyone who has claimed to be a Big Name. However, I have met some who claimed to be well versed in the knowledge and wisdom of Big Named Ones and have a link to them. The way I have dealt with that has been to give them the benefit of the doubt. I cannot directly say they are wrong or right at that time, all I personally can do is weigh what they say and how they behave against what I know is my knowledge.

The sad thing is that all of those who have claimed strong ties to Big Names have untimately brought about their own downfall, by showing, in time, that they have not the knowledge or understanding - not just to me but also to others I know and have studied with.

On another vein, as has been mentioned in another thread, some have met more than one person claiming to be Azazel. I can't comment on that as I have not met them, talked to them and compared knowledge, wisdom and experience. All I can do is say what is true for me, what I know, what I remember - all of which is based upon my experiences and is my own personal truth. I claim to be Azaz'el the Grigori, who wanted the ascension of Humanity, who faught to bring about their direct connection to the Source, and who died and was bound to the Great Cycle. I claim to be Shadow. But I am no more important than anyone who joins this forum and wants to bring about unification.

There will be other Azaz'el's and many Big Names out there all trying to gain power, adoration, a following. I'm hosting this forum with Ishtahar not for all of those things, but because I am tired, I want to return Home, and I am lonely for my own kind. Perhaps that is sad and tragic, perhaps not, I have been in Exile too long.
I personally think that anyone claiming to be a Big Name for personal gain and an ego boost should be politely listened too and then even more politely told to go forth and multiply. I have no time for time wasters and those who think it's all a game and a good laugh.

Perhaps there is someone out there who really does believe they could be a Big Name, or could even be Azaz'el. I will welcome them and try to share knowledge and information. But in the end, the bigger the name, the more they have to prove, to the world if not to themselves. And certainly they have to prove much to the members of this forum, who will not accept blindly, but who have knowledge, wisdom and the confidence to question.


By Dreamsend Dec 5 2007 -

When considering the nature of life, the universe and everything, I inevitably stumbled upon this question as well and found it an impassable road block at the time. That said, I've come across several theories that I suscribe to, some of or all of which could be true.

In the theory/idea of reincarnation, detractors point out that there are way more people on the planet now than there were in ancient times. I think the idea (and valid spiritual concept) of divided souls helps to explain this...

This is the thought that from one all originated. One became two, two four and so on. On the one hand, I see no reason why souls should not continue to "split" to experience more in this manner (giving rise to bigger and bigger "soul groups" if you will). On the other hand, sometimes trauma can, and does, give rise to splitting and multiplying souls. So, in the case of multiple incarnated persons claiming to be the same ancient being, both could be fragments of that soul, possibly.

I don't so much like the explanation of parellel planes myself, though i couldn't tell you why. It's just a feeling I have.

I heard an explanation by a scientist some time ago that also seems plausible. I think it is possible that "big names" become so well known, that in remembering aspects of the past, sometimes it is only those stories of those famous beings that come through. He said that was the most likely reason that there were multiples of certain famous people - many had lived and died during those times and sometimes those stories of those famous people were the only identities to really "carry through" in memory. It is, for example, if you follow closely the stories of Angelina Jolie or Bill Clinton and their lives and daily challenges. If you know so much about them, in the next life you have you might be able to remember nothing else but them. Azazel mentioned in another thread how memories of self, others, and legend tend to blur over the centuries. I completely agree and think this might happen a lot more than most think.

Sorry, talking about subjects like this gets me all analytical =) Hope that was more clear than it looks.

-- Angela

By Dreamsend Dec 5 2007 -

I forgot to add... that because of this, I take many claims of "I am *this famous person or being*" with a lot of salt... if nothing else, I can only rely on intuition to guide me. "Yes, maybe this person is who they claim to be" and so on.

But for the most part, I only think there can be so many of "a person" running around at any one time...

By Ishtahar Dec 5 2007 -

I concur with Az in reltion to the Big Name issue. I too have come across people who claim to be all sorts of things and I also use the phylosophy, give them the benefit of the doubt but take everything they say with a pinch of salt until they prove themselves. I too have had the experience that sooner or later everyone I have met so far who have claimed to be a Big Name or the all knowing something or other have always turned out to be nothing more than someone with a big ego or at best deluded.

I believe that most of the Big Names (at least the spiritual ones) have been part of the Great Cycle and if they have been part of that they have suffered and if they have suffered they have learned humility with strength and they will not be putting themselves out there to get cudos but will be doing it with reluctance and trepidation because they have to.,

As far and the multiple soul issue there are a number of possible answers

1.. There might be new souls arriving or being created all the time.
2. If transmigration of souls involves non human souls then consider that although there are more humans now than ever that is not true across all of creation...imagine the species which are now extinct, their souls could now be human
3. There seem to be more otherkin around now than ever, and they are inhabiting human bodies

And probably lots and lots more explainations also which I cant think of at this time

By Araqiel Jan 9 2008 -


"This is the thought that from one all originated. One became two, two four and so on. On the one hand, I see no reason why souls should not continue to "split" to experience more in this manner (giving rise to bigger and bigger "soul groups" if you will). On the other hand, sometimes trauma can, and does, give rise to splitting and multiplying souls. So, in the case of multiple incarnated persons claiming to be the same ancient being, both could be fragments of that soul, possibly.

I don't so much like the explanation of parellel planes myself, though i couldn't tell you why. It's just a feeling I have."

Might be a bit like cutted diamonds [user posted link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Diamond_cut_history.png], the older the more facets it has.

At least the point cut (from above side) is the typical I see deep inside of most non awakened and mundane humans as the shape of their soul - or my imagination uses such a picture before my inner eye - while awakened, spiritual/magical active or kins tend to appear as an own figure.
[The most recent or suprising one was I think a an elderly muslim perhaps the Imam of a local community who appeared as figure with a four sided head, each one was constantly mumbling or recitating. Though Eventually he became aware of my kin-nes and started to use a spiritual shield/defense technique.]

So far I personally would explain such by supposing those humans only exist in four dimension, are not aware of any metaphysical or spiritual things and have a dominant light and a hidden dark side.

Well the shape of Araq(u)iel I am fell to hell while the other names from the book being Araciel, Arqael, Saraquael, Arakiel, Arkas, Araqael seem distant or entirely different beings to me.
Yet I have also met another Azazel who also claimed to have helped humanity and currently thinks he has done something bad but is not entirely shure, this facet of Azazel however is more the one referred to as Angel of Death and of healing through having the soul to rest.

By Ishtahar Jan 10 2008 -

Welcome to the site Araqiel. You make some imteresting points.

I am terrified of the thought of another Azazel walking around out there somewhere...another one!!!!

I wonder whether there is another Ishtahar somewhere, I would love to meet her. I wonder whether this would be because a soul has split so that we are all one...so to speak OR whethere there were just more than one in the first place.

Your description of what you see in people is very interesting, I would say that kin have at least one extra dimesion to them and they certainly have a different 'flavour', an unique 'key signature' so to speak. I am not sure though that humans operate on mainly light with hidden darkness, I dont happen to think the darkness is that hidden and it comes right to the surface given the slightest opportunity. I dont think it is ever far beneath the surface even when it takes the form of fear

By Azaz'el Jan 10 2008 -

We're all terrified of another you wandering around, Ishtahar.... or at least those who have met you are.


On a serious note, I get the feeling more and more that the names we had then are perhaps the same as names today..... so there will be many John's, Susan's Peter's, etc etc in the world, and not all of them are the same being, just have the same names.

Yet I also feel that perhaps some specific 'roles' that the universe needs to have, can be attached to a specific name. So whilst it feels a little strange to know there is someone out there in the world who could be another aspect of me, perhaps what they are is a unique individual who needs to fulfill a role..... Azaz'el is a name associated with death, with sacrifice, with matyrdom and pain. So perhaps when that role is needed, the name is there to be used.

it's just a thought.


By Sari'el Jan 14 2008 -

Only recently did I stumble upon this question. I couldn't say what would happen if another claimed my name. Perhaps they would be right. In my case it would not surprise me much, some of my early research into the subject portrays at least some Fallen as multi-faceted, which would allow for there to be multiple ones with the same name, with a small variation of spelling, here and there. Of course the variation wouldn't end there, if this theory is correct it would not be surprising if the difference also extended into ones focus, with their qualities revolving around different aspects of the same Fallen.

By Ishtahar Jan 15 2008 -

I can see the logic in all of these propositions. I think it is very likely that there were more than one Azaz'el and Seri'el and Shemyaza. Yes they were just names with no property to the individual. It could also make sense that, given that the souls of the fallen were ripped from their bodies and imprisoned for centuries, the souls of a single individual have become fractured and manifested in multiple forms over the years.

However, I dont think that, with regard to the second proposition, that this is any longer the case. This is the time when we are all coming to earth at the same time, we are all awakening and we are all coming together. There is a reason for this. We need to be together and we cant do that when we are all fragmented. Maybe that is why we are having such a tough time of it...because fragments who have been separated are coming together within the same body for the first time.

By Lael Jan 15 2008 -

You all make interesting points. It's great to be able to read your opinions and compare notes, per se.

Now, the main reason I asked the question in the original post was twofold. One, was because in all the years I've watched the otherkin community, I've met individuals claiming the identity of the one I happen to answer to, who I know beyond doubt is not fallen, nor incarnate.

It gave me a pause, not for thinking they faked it for attention's sake, but rather, to realize that in the identity disputes, in the end it's one person's word against that of another, and not much else to fall back on to support the claim.

Another reason was even more personal. I haven't met another me (yet). But the person whose soul is a kind of child of mine, remembers an entity bearing my name whom she yet doesn't recognize as me (this gets convoluted and I can't guarantee it makes sense xD Apologies.) In the beginning, when she -quite accidentally- recovered some of her memories, she had a distinct feeling of a presence and a name (a very close-sounding variation of mine) to go with it. An afterimage? A product of her imagination? Someone who took my place? Someone vaguely similar, with a similar name, who took interest in her? I never found out, but I never stopped idly wondering, either.

That aside, in my understanding and experience it is indeed so that names serve the purpose of describing one's function or calling, and their forms spelled out in modern English are not actually accurate. The subject just boggles my mind, really.

[disclaimer: this post feels incomplete and somewhat incoherent to me, for which I apologize, but I've been in an odd/distracted state of mind for a longer while now which is why I haven't been posting. So, I'm sorry if this brought more confusion than anything into the discussion. ;-)]

By Ishtahar Jan 17 2008 -

Not at all, it brought another dimension. It triggered a kind of half remembered sense of ....something. I too am totally unable to find words to put it into form at the moment but it makes me feel that there is an important truth in there somewhere under the surface,beginning to bubble up.

By Ysolde May 19 2008 -

Being that I have chosen the name I have (and what I have written in the guestbook earlier) this seems to be the right topic to place my first post in.

I might be alone in this... but I don't think there is reason to fret about this at all.

What's in a name?
What is identity?
If we are all streams in the same pool, does it really matter?

We are here. This is reality. We tell each other stories of who we are, or what we are, or what we think we are.
Are these 'merely stories', or recounts of actual events? Should they be taken 'literal' or understood 'symbolicly' ?

For me, there is no difference. Terry Pratchett once wrote that stories don't care who participate in them. All that matters is that the story gets told.

No living being - at least as far as I have experienced it - can ever really know fully who and what it is, because to understand this would be the same as understanding creation itself.

That, I do not propose to attempt.
It is. Love is. That is enough.

By Ishtahar May 20 2008 -

You make an excellent point. It is something I was told a long time ago by someone very close.

I had forgotten but recent events have been bringing it to mind in a number of situations / ways.

I dont think that I for one will ever stop looking for answers, for connections, for reasons, for explainations, for logic. I will never be able to stop asking who? and why? and how? but I also think that it does everyone good once in a while to just sit back and accept and say.....well just...because. smile.gif

Although surely the attempt to understand creation is not a wholly futile one because even though we know we can never get to the end of the line..the journey is such an interesting one. Especially when share the road will fellow travellers, and even more so when you sit at the side of the road and share a moment with a friend.


By Azaz'el May 20 2008 -

I don't think anyone would necessarily fret or worry too much about their name or the associations linked to them. I, for one, have been told by a number of members of this forum that they have known others who have taken the name Azazel. My response, increasingly over time, is that it doesn't matter to me who else takes that name. But what is important to me is what that name means to me.

We may all be streams in the same pool, but the different flavours and colours of those streams make the pool what it is. For me tobe able to understand the path I have walked and the path I need to walk once again, I need to know who and what I was, am, and will be again. So for me to know, to remember, that I was and am Azaz'el helped me to focus and do the work I am currently doing, part of which includes this forum.

The stsories need to be told, but perhaps the players, and those telling the stories, need to know their role and function. Or perhaps this is purely a Shadow nature, and humanity doesn't need this? I can only speak for myself, and knowing my name, my identity and therefore my history, was vital for me.


By Ysolde Mar 21 2008 -

QUOTE (Azaz'el @ Mar 20 2008, 09:23 PM)

"The stsories need to be told, but perhaps the players, and those telling the stories, need to know their role and function. Or perhaps this is purely a Shadow nature, and humanity doesn't need this?"

Let me be a bit provocative and ask you back : do you think humans need to know?
They/we have a discipline called philosophy, and another called theology, the discourse of which go back milleniae. Some of those which you term Shadow might find it is primitive, or in other ways different from their own mode of thought.
But it is there.
Why do you think that is?

I am poking a bit here, I know, and you might think it cheeky, especially for a newcomer. But I am taking that chance, because I have been told that here everyone can voice what they think. In respect for others, of course... and I hope I am not being too annoying there.

Of course the whole of creation is continually in search, defining and redefining itself.
Some say that conscious life is the way existence experiences itself....
I think my point with my previous post was, that it is important to realise that the borders where one stop, and the world begins, are fluctuating. Identity is an organic thing, and constantly subject to change. What is important is the little light within, which is always the same, yet always also a part of the big light. Simultaneously. Paradoxically. A great deal of peace and resting within oneself, to my experience, is to appreciate this, in the fullest way possible. 'Trust' is a key word here.
To know your role and function is a development that never ceases. It is the road, as Ish says, that is interesting. I think many things are down to choice. We choose and re-choose who we are, time and time again.
The important thing is, that we are ourselves - even though we might always have to constantly refine our perception of what that is.
As such, creation/the graal and the single part of it which an individual constitutes... are they really separable at all?

Do I come across primitive in my mode of thought? Unfortunately, language is not always enough to express all that is within us.
I am horrified and happy to say that I have absolutely no clue about where I am going.
I just dance the dance.
But then, maybe things are wonderfully simple for me. Or maybe I am just gullible.

Either way, get a gander at this... :


Now that was someone who knew what's going on.... biggrin.gif also his definitions of what constitutes concepts as 'angel', 'devil', 'messiah' and other heavy names for things, shows how a name is an organic thing... ye gods, at humanities dep. we suffer deeply in our attempts at communication, because of this very changeability. wink.gif

By Ishtahar Mar 23 2008 -

Yes, I think humanity has as much of a desire to know their place within the dance as any other being, however, in my experience the majority of us tend to limit the picture to such an extent we never can. When Shadow (and other kin) look at the dance they look at all the dancers and try to find their own thread through them all, when humanity looks as the dance they refuse to see the other dancers, the ones who arent human, so of course they cant see their path no matter how hard they try.

Philosophy, theology, astrology and all the rest are flawed in that they look at only part of the picutre so how can they ever hope to see how they fit.

How many humans are even aware of the existence of kin let alone the interconnection of us all in the dance? How many humans who are aware of the shadow / fallen have a true picture which is not fundamentally flawed by religion or a failure to see what is really there?

I agree that we are all part of the same flame, the same dance, but until we all start to realise that we are not the only ones dancing, that there are other dancing side by side, and we are preapred to bring them into our circle and adjust our steps to theirs we have no real hope of seeing the real picture, of hearing the real music, of telling the real stories.

And we have to do this by opening our arms and our hearts to our fellow dancers and by listening to their cries when we trample on their toes in our blind stumblings as we resolutely try to convince ourselves they are not there.

We must be true partners in the dance and then the pattern will unfold before our feet and we will all dance in time to the heartbeat of the universe.....or something smile.gif


By Ysolde Mar 23 2008 -


You are right of course.
However, the fault which you describe, is something I believe everyone is guilty of sometimes, whatever kind of being they are.

By Ishtahar Mar 23 2008 -

Oh yes, I know that, of course I do. Everyone is guilty of seeing only what they want to see sometimes.

By Ellysium May 7 2008 -

This topic is really interesting, and I agree with a lot of what has been said. However, I don't really have the right amount of focus or energy to add my own philosophical thoughts right now tongue.gif

However! Earlier in this thread you were talking about splitting souls and things, and it reminded me of an experience I had.
I was in a meditative state, and got the image/concept of an Oversoul. And from this oversoul, many little souls split off and were leading their own unique chain of lives, while still being one with the oversoul.
In this experience I actually found myself helping another soul in its lifetime as an elf-like thing. It felt like we were separate souls, but came from the same oversoul. I also got very short glimpses of what the other soul parts were doing.

By Azaz'el May 28 2008 -

QUOTE (Ellysium @ May 7 2008, 04:29 PM)
"And from this oversoul, many little souls split off and were leading their own unique chain of lives, while still being one with the oversoul."

This is actually a concept that does exist in a few different traditions and spiritual paths. It can become really complicated when you try to consider the concept that perhaps this explains the memories of past lives.... some are in the past, some are in the future, but all are happening now, at the same time. So if we really try we can break through the barriers of time and space and know what we are doing in all lives right now, as we are all linked. That's one concept at least!

My brain is cluttered with useless information as you can see.

Az blink.gif

By Ellysium May 28 2008 -

No, Az, I think that's interesting. And I feel like I've stepped into that state or almost, where I could bypass time and space. It doesn't happen often, and I don't think I went very far with it the few times it did happen, but it's fun smile.gif

By Ishtahar May 31 2008 -

I have not been well lately and have therefore had plenty of time to think about things. One of the recurrent themes that has occurred to me is just this...the feeling of being out of time and looking backwardsa nd forwards along our lives.
It wasnt fun for me bacuase I seemed to see the troubles and losses rather than the good times but that may have something to do with the nature of my focus at the moment,

By Dreamsend Jun 2 2008 -

I feel sometimes as if I'm "looking in" on past and future selves... that the future selves give me guidance and a shoulder to lean on when there is none around, and the past selves do the same too sometimes, though mostly I give them support and guidance. It is a strange feeling. To sort of "look back or forward" and feel the self there looking back at you.

I've felt that more and more recently, as if I've gotten the stomach for it more. In the past, I only really felt it as a little kid, as if some "big sister" or "matron" that seemed to know an awful lot about me, was sending me a hug or a pat on the back from some far and distant place that I could never get to, not then.

By Scratch Dec 10 2008 -

Just in case anyone is still reading here...

This was a fascinating thread, which made several possibilities occur to me:

What if the increasing number of humans are reincarnations of all the animals and plants being killed? Entire species (ever read about passenger pigeon flocks?) have gone extinct within the past few hundred years. What if those souls are becoming human?

The book "American Gods," by Neil Gaiman, may have an answer to the question of how multiple incarnations could have the same name. It is a fictional novel, but a very, very good one.

If someone is dropping a Big Name in the attitude of trying to impress someone else with it, I tend to think either they're not who they say, or an arrogant, inexperienced version. Either way, I think it would be far more likely for someone claiming such to not declare their identity in a public forum. By all accounts, there are some pretty epic rivalries between heavy powers, and besides that, anyone truly "important" (terms in which I have a harder and harder time thinking anyway - minor roles can be what hold the play together) would know it and not need to impress.

By Ishtahar Dec 10 2008 -

That is absolutely true as far as it goes but... consider this... if all of the so called 'big names' (and how do we assess what that constitutes anyway), sit on the sidelines and say.... we can't go out there and say who we are because a) no one will believe us and cool.gif it would just be showing off anyway and c) we might get into conflict with everyone else who is claiming to be the same being... then what happens... they all sit on the sidelines denying who they are to themselves and everyone else, they deny others who knew them and identify with them from finding them and coming together with them... and yes, there is fear... there is terror that those who were against them the first time will be watching and waiting for them now... but since when should we bow to fear and let it rule our lives.

If there is anyone out there who considers themselves to be part of this... speak up and say so.... be strong and brave because that is the only way we can every hope to move on.

This has not been easy... no way has it... but if I can stand up and say... this is who I am... not who I believe I am or who I want to be but who I am then so should you.

By Lael Dec 11 2008 -

there is terror that those who were against them the first time will be watching and waiting for them now...

They, if they matter at all to such extent they could still pose a threat, know who each of us is whether we say it out loud or keep quiet about it.

I have a friend who, once upon a time, switched sides willingly. I don't use the word 'demon' to name what she is because that's not a very good descriptor, but to give you an idea, let the word stand. She is about the only person I know who is open about who and what she is at all times. She makes it known to everyone who interacts with her, and there's something about her that makes people abandon the idea to ridicule that before they open their mouth. She's neither ashamed nor afraid.

Sometimes I wish I were more like her. ;-) I'm not ashamed or afraid, either, but I usually sit on the sidelines, Ish, and observe. There's a sense of dread in me at the idea of coming up and saying, "this is who I am, this is what I am" - and I'm not sure why it's there.

Scratch, I'm sure many of us are still around checking the forums, reading the posts, and I'm glad this thread has been interesting to you. biggrin.gif


By Ishtahar Dec 11 2008 -

Sitting on the sidelines and watching is fine Lael... dont think for one minute that I am being critical of those who choose to do that. Damn I have done it myself for long enough.

But, from where I am standing I have been afraid for too long. I have been through too much, lost too much, hurt too much, suffered too much to come to the understanding of what I am to hide any more from anyone, especially myself and, least of all out of fear.

This is me, this is who I am. Believe it or not, accept it or not... that is your choice.

I am Ishtahar.

By Azaz'el Dec 11 2008 -

In many ways it depends on what you believe to be Big Names.

If someone claimes to be 'God' then perhaps that is a big name that some would find difficult to believe in. I sit here and claim to be Azaz'el. Google this name, do a search on wikipedia and you'll find so much stuff linked to the name. Follow the links back through time, take it to the point when the myth was a reality. Then look at the person who was called Azaz'el......... is it still a Big Name or is it just a name that a lot of hype has been placed upon and been demonised by any and every faith?

If I am not who and what I know myself to be, if I was trying to be a Big Name to tender favours and make myself to be all powerful, surely I would be doing more and listening less? Search other forums and see how many other Azazels out there are claiming to know all true answers or are offering guidance..... for only 70 dollars a month.

I do agree that the louder some shout the less they have to say. I also know that I cannot offer anything to anyone to convince them of anything I say.... which is why I never try to convince anyone. What I offer is offered in friendship, openess and for everyone to read, pick through, reject or accept. In the end I have only my own truth, as all of you reading this have your own too.

I do apologise to everyone, especially to Ish and the Moderators for not being around much in recent times, I have been in the wilderness for a while now, facing many thoughts and memories and udeas that have dragged me through my past and through my own personal hell in an attempt to understand. I still don't understand it all, but I will share what I have come to see with you all soon.

I am Azaz'el. I have earned this name and been cursed by it.

By Scratch Dec 12 2008 -

I've been in the wilderness of my mind myself lately, and doing good work. With a machete.

Lael, I think I know that dread you described quite well. I've made so many attempts, but no matter how deep my desire to tell, a deeper compulsion makes me stop. All things in their time I guess.

Ishtahar, once again you gave me a lot to think about with few words. Very, very true. Thank you.

By Aislinne Dec 13 2008 -

I see no problem of someone claiming their identity, as long as they honestly believe that is who they are, not that the name will bring them some kind of off slanted respect or reverence. I know people who claim to be the four. I know someone who claims to be, Azaz'el, your niece. The daughter of Asteroth. I know many people who claim to be many things. It's all in how believeable it it.
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