ARCHIVE: Reality and Perception

By Sentru Dec 23 2007 -

My position can be summarized thusly:

Perception:
1) Perception is a mechanism of the human brain, aided by the senses. We receive impressions from the senses which are then interpreted by the brain and perceived by us as objects.
2) Therefore, it is impossible for us to experience an object as it actually is. Rather, we experience the brain-interpreted, sense-based impressions of said object.
3) This tells us that the human brain is limited in it's ability, for if it were not, we would experience things as they actually are rather than as mere appearances or representations.
4) In addition to the logical reason given in #3, the human brain could not be of unlimited potential unless one were to believe that not only is the human brain more evolved than the brains of any other organism (including ALL sentient beings from other planets), but that it is in fact BEYOND the very principal of evolution...which of course it is not.
5) None of this means that the human brain does not have an untapped potential. It most surely does. Yet, there is a difference between believing in the untapped potential of the human brain and believing that said potential is "limitless".

Conception:
1) Conception is the means by which the reasoning mind extracts data from the above-mentioned world of representations, primarily for the purpose of communication (language). A concept is a mental abstraction of a perception. For instance: the tree you see in your back yard is experienced via sense and perception, but "tree" itself is a concept. In order to build up the concept of "tree", you must mentally abstract all of the similarities which all trees share in common, while discarding the differences.
2) Therefore, conception is not the root of perception. Perception is, rather, the root of conception.
3) Beliefs are "grand conceptions", so to speak. If conception is not the root of perception, then neither is a conception of a conception of a conception (i.e.: a belief).
4) None of this means that belief cannot influence one's life. I agree 100% with Lael's statements on this.

And, that's about it. Free feel to move this to whichever new thread you guys may open on the topic.


By Azaz'el Dec 29 2007 -

*Please note I've split and moved this post from a previous thread as requested by members, to start a new thread here. If anyone isn't sure about the basis behind this thread, please look at the posts connected to Sentru's introduction post.

This explanation post of mine will be deleted after a short while.

Az


By Ishtahar Dec 31 2007 -

I have to say enormous respect to Sentru for summarising everything so succinctly and so quickly. I have had a look at the post a couple of time but when I started to think about putting together my own thoughts my mind just went nooooooooooooooooooo ohmy.gif

It doesnt help that I keep coming to it when I am tired and more than a little tipsy so I think I will have a go at it tomorrow in the day sometime when I am clear headed and sober.


By Ishtahar Dec 31 2007 -

OK, trying to summarise my position...not easy and making brain hurt but.....here goes.

First of all let me make a clear distinction...I am not and never have been talking about the human 'brain' I am talking about the 'mind' which is a completely different thing.

The position from which I am debating is that the mind is limitless in its potential and that the mind can create a belief which can affect or even create reality, or at least a reality.

First we must start with a belief because my beliefs power my thoughts which lead to my conclusions which feed my beliefs.

I believe that all things are connected at a molecular level. Every atom creates a charge and has a space into which the charge is fed and which contains elemets of the charges of all other atoms, in short each atom feeds into an energy stream which connects to all other atoms....the stream of life which is god (if not The God then at least my god). god is made up of a miniscule part of every atom in existence and is therefore part of everything in existence. Everything in existence contains a miniscule part of every atom in god and therefore in each other. In short every atom IS god.

The human body is made up of many atoms and therefore contains many parts of god and of every other (for want of a better word) 'thing' in existence.

The mind is that part of us which quests, which interprates all of the information fed into it by the body and by everything outside the body. The mind takes in and lets out atoms, it is fed, in part by the conscious senses and it uses that information to keep the body moving through the world, but this is not all that it takes in. It takes in information from the ether, from spirit, from, the cosmos, from the very genetic code of existence, from its atoms and the spaces betwee.

In this way the mind is limitless as it has access on a moment by moment basis to the experiences of every 'thing' in existence. It has infinite knowledge, infinite memories, inifinite potential.

The fact that the normal working mode of the human brain has switched off this access does not mean that it is not there. We can access the potential through means such as divination, tarpt, meditation, dreaming etc,

In order to access this limitless potential we have to first believe it is there and second believe that we can access it, believe in ourselves, our abilities. If we have both of these beliefs and we work hard enough then we can, to an extent access the potential, although most of it is shut off from us for the simple reason that we would not be able to function in this world if we were open to all that knowledge all the time.

If we have the belief and the ability to access the information and the belief to use the knowledge we gain then we can create a new reality.

To me it seems fairly clear that belief can create reality, I think that the only question is to what extent.

For example...if you go out for a night out believing you look fantastic then people will be attracted to you and you will have a great night. If you go out being uncomfortable with the way you look this is what you will project and people will feel uncomfortable with you and you will have a terrible night. The REALITY of how you look is irrelevant. On both occasions you will have looked exactly the same but the PERCEPTION of those with whom you come into contact will be affected, through body language, the way you project yourself, the vibes you give off etc, will have been affected by your belief in yourself (or lack of it).

I may well have got lost somewhere in the middle of that and if so I apologise. I seem to be quite wooly headed these days...must be all the Christmas Cheer biggrin.gif


By Sentru Jan 1 2008 -

QUOTE
"First of all let me make a clear distinction...I am not and never have been talking about the human 'brain' I am talking about the 'mind' which is a completely different thing."


In what way are the brain and mind "completely different" from one another? Even assuming that they are not exactly the same, the latter surely proceeds from the former. So logically, if the brain is limited in it's potential, so must be the mind.

QUOTE
"The mind is that part of us which quests, which interprates all of the information fed into it by the body and by everything outside the body. The mind takes in and lets out atoms, it is fed, in part by the conscious senses and it uses that information to keep the body moving through the world,"


You're talking here about very physical processes, yet maintain that the physical brain and the mind are completely different. Clearly, as the above shows, they are not. The one proceeds from the other. This leads to the aforementioned conclusion that, if the brain is limited in it's potential, so must be the mind.

QUOTE
"but this is not all that it takes in. It takes in information from the ether, from spirit, from, the cosmos, from the very genetic code of existence, from its atoms and the spaces betwee. In this way the mind is limitless as it has access on a moment by moment basis to the experiences of every 'thing' in existence. It has infinite knowledge, infinite memories, inifinite potential."


Even if it were true that the mind does these things (and it very well may), this still would not prove limitless potential (of humanity), as anything 'taken in' in this way is still subject to interpretation by the physical brain.

QUOTE
"To me it seems fairly clear that belief can create reality, I think that the only question is to what extent."


Yes, that is the question.
In order to take the position some others have taken, you have to make a LOT of assumptions. To me, that is no better than believing in such and such a thing because "the Bible says so" or "my parents say so" or "my 'faith' tells me so".
Now of course, if personal experience tells you these things are so, that is a different story. Yet it could still be argued that it's all just a matter of your perception vs mine.


By Ishtahar Jan 3 2008 -

It most certainly could, and it is not for me to say that either perception is wholly right or wrong. The very most I can say is that my perception is right for me.

I do not accept that the mind and the brain are the same thing or connected in any way other than that the brain is the processing unit for the mind, something like the computer is to the programmer.

I think when you are looking at the matter of potential you are using too narrow a frame of reference. I am not saying that any individual today as they are today have limitless potential, in one single lifetime. I am saying that over a period of time...could be millenia, the human mind had limitless potential, whether that is within or without the confines of the human body is quite another matter. smile.gif

You make an excellent arguement Sentru but you have still not convinced me smile.gif


By EaruArulay Jul 16 2008 -

In my opinion..
The "mind" is created when certain preliminary processes inside the brain (Synapses, Neurons, Neurotransmitters, Receptors, etc) work in unison to create a domain for consciousness to reside in. So all the brain cells combining their processing power into a single functioning unit creates a brain and the result of their interactions within the brain creates the mind.

The mind is experienced by the consciousness inhabiting it.

As for perception, the physical mechanisms of perception all rest within the brain.
Perception is like looking through a lens and seeing one thing, once the lens is removed you may see something completely different than what you were seeing through the lens. To tie together the metaphor, the lens would be 3D perception within the human body and without the lens would be our nonphysical state before conception or after death.
However, we are not the only sentient beings within our dimension or universe, and indeed there are extradimensional entities and they too are part of a whole system of creation, and us humans are part of it. (As speculative as it may sound to some people)

Anyways those are just my two cents out of a dollar on perception tongue.gif