ARCHIVE: Polarities

By Azaz'el Nov 10 2007 -

One of the concepts I have seen discussed quite a few times in recent months on other forums that are open to all Otherkin, is the concept of the Light, the Dark and from this coming the Shadow.

I'm curious as to what others think of this idea. Was there or is there, in your understanding, a force out there that calls itself the Light? Is there one called the Dark? For me, when I began walking and training on the spiritual and magical path I walk, even before remembering who I really was, I came to understand that the light and dark were just polarities and expressions, and light can blind and burn as much as the dark can hide and bring fear. So both can be a force for good and a force for evil. The name holds no power, it's the beings held within them that do. There are no absolutes.

The name Shadow has nothing to do with us being grey or hidden half in the light and half in the dark. It is purely just the English interpretation of an older name.

So what are your experiences? Am I wrong? Is there an ancient force out there called the Light who does battle with the Dark, like in the Susan Cooper novels?

Az


By Hope Nov 11 2007 -

i disagree, i think that everyone within them holds both forces and it's how they balance them that determines if it will be for good or bad but they are quite opposite.


By Ishtahar Nov 11 2007 -

I have to say that I have not spent a terribly long time contemplating this. However I would be disinclined to think that there is anything like 'the Light' and 'the Dark'. I believe that the Source, The All, The Great Spirit, God, however you define the force of life, is an energy force/source. It is the flow of life, the life force etc from which the whole of creatiion sprung and of which we are all in essence comprised. This is neither light nor dark and neither are those things which have flowed from it.


One of the reasons I believe this is that light and dark / good and bad are to a large degree purely subjective. What one person at one time considers to be light / good can be considered by another person at another time to be dark / bad. For example human sacrifice. I have engaged in this practice in former lives in the absolute and sure understanding tha I was acting purely for the good of my people and was utterly convinved at the time that it was the right thing to do. Looking back with twety first century eyes I at first considered my former selves to have been evil for doing what they did but now I realise that they werent they were just living their lives in the best way they could at that time.

As another example I consider homosexuality to be completely natural and in no way intrinsically more or less evil than heterosexuality. However, there are those out there who consider it to be the epitome of evil. At the end of the day it is neither good nor evil, dark nor light....it just is.

Then there is , of course the question does dark = bad/evil; does light = good. Well, no of course it does not. Light blinds and burns, darkness cools and calms. Light illuminates and darkness hides but the things which light illuminates are not always good deeds and the things that darkness hides are not always bad.

So where am I going with this......I have rambled a little thinking on my feet as it were but I think that what I am trying to say is that from the source came creation, within creation there was darkness and light and shadow, there was cool and hot and green and purple but at the end of the day they were all just creation with its faults and flaws, its beauty and its ugliness, its good and its bad.


By Dreamsend Nov 12 2007 -

I agree and disagree, and briefly I will try to explain the meaning of my saying that:

On the one hand, I agree that light and dark can each be considered good or evil, depending on the "force/entity" that has that attribute. I have had trouble in the past determining if something could be "bad" if it were of the light, and the answer I've discovered (even if bad is subjective) is that yes, it can.

I should perhaps digress to address my understanding of "bad/good." Though I believe those judgments to be subjective, especially when they are judgments made by humans, there is also a sort of true "Evil" and true "Good." Perhaps I should say that instead of something being "Evil" it is the force that corrupts/degrades/destroys (without avenue to rebirth/learning/growth), so of course we would consider it "evil," most sentient beings like their state of life/health/well being! =D

So, on the other hand, I can say that I believe that there are two (or more) forces, an absolute "Evil" and an absolute "Good" which are commonly referred (even in the spirit realms/especially in the spirit realms) by the labels of Light (i.e. absolute good) and Dark (i.e. absolute evil). I have some personal experience with both these forces. The source does contain both sides, yes (from my understanding, being "attributeless/having all possible attributes") but the derivative forces have definite agendas. I guess one can say that there is the Source and then there's the Creator (i.e. God/the Universe) a sentient sort of being, that is Light/interested in growth/change/life continuing to exist.

I had a strictly pagan understanding of the world for some time, during which I dispossessed the commonly-believed-to-be Christian notions of the world, including belief in the Devil.

I do not hold the Devil (however stereotyped it's become in time) to be the same as the Morningstar/Lucifer the Fallen angel, though that is what current Christian thought dictates (another warping over time of two concepts into one). I hold the Devil to be the same as "Absolute Evil" made sentient (i.e. the opposite of God/the Universe). I have in the past few years come to believe in it again, not from a Christian standpoint, and wholly through personal experience(s).

-- Dreamsend


By Ishtahar Nov 12 2007 -

That is a very sensible and well thought out response.

I am not entirely closed to the possibility that there are two ultimate forces of good/evil Light/Dark but that has not been my experience so far.

I am not entirely convinced that there is any such thing as pure, unadulterated and objective absolute good or evil for its own sake.

It is hard to think of any 'bad act' which I have not remembered doing at one time or another. I have killed for nothing more than the pure pleasure of experiencing the energy that is released at the point of death, I have tortured to the point of death and beyond for a cause in which I believed, I have raped and tornented, lied, stolen and aduterated; but I do not consider myself to by in any way evil.

On the other hand I have given my life for the sake of a friend, I have sacrificeed everything to save my people, I have given of myself totally and completely in the name of one cause or another and I have always helped those I considered to be in need of help. Yet I have never been or approached or touched an energy that was wholly good.

I am not saying that you are wrong Dreamsend I am just saying that you have come to a different conclusion through your lifes' experiences than I have through mine.


By Lael Dec 4 2007 -

In my experience, light and darkness are good or evil by association alone. They're unattached to either side by themselves; neutral, if you will. They can be used, though, and that's where the stereotypes kick in.

What feels like a "natural" association to an average human being (light=pure, good; darkness=filthy, bad) stems partly from the human nature itself. From their fear of the (physical) darkness. Partly because it's been associated that way in stories and elsewhere nearly since the advent of time, and that's some powerful social conditioning if I ever saw any.

It gets more curious when you remember that good and evil are rarely clear-cut and often difficult to delineate. Even more often, it depends on where you stand. I'd certainly be considered evil by many, while I never actually pledged allegiance to the proverbial "dark side" and fell for entirely different reasons.

Go figure, hmm.

ETA:

QUOTE

"I do not hold the Devil (however stereotyped it's become in time) to be the same as the Morningstar/Lucifer the Fallen angel, though that is what current Christian thought dictates (another warping over time of two concepts into one). I hold the Devil to be the same as "Absolute Evil" made sentient (i.e. the opposite of God/the Universe). I have in the past few years come to believe in it again, not from a Christian standpoint, and wholly through personal experience(s)."


In my experience and memory, Lucifer isn't it (ie, the "absolute evil" itself); he's the one who absorbed/embraced it. Not the same thing, though it seems to be because people like to simplify things until they warp them beyond recognition.


By Ishtahar Dec 5 2007 -

I am no expert but my understanding is that Lucifer was the right hand man of the Big Man himself. They had a bit of a spat over how sould should enter heaven and the Big Man sent him down to earth to purify through trial the sould who would not otherwise have made it to heaven.

Given that I do not believe in the Big Man it would extrapolate that Lucifer was another Shadow who liked humanity and was prepared to forfeit his position in 'Heaven' to come down and live among them which to the lofty Shadow in Kharsag would surely be 'Hell'.

That is mere conjecture though as Lucifer had already left before I became acquainted with Shem and he was really my first brush with Shadow.